Rudy Giuliani invoked the Michael Mukasey defense on waterboarding with town hall attendees in Iowa on Wednesday, claiming he wasn’t sure waterboarding was torture.
“I’m not sure it is either, it depends on how it is done,” said Giuliani who is a longtime friend of Mukasey. “It depends on the circumstances. It depends on who does it.”
The former New York City Mayor and Justice Department official during the Reagan Administration went on to say he thought the “liberal media” might not be describing waterboarding correctly.
“Sometimes they describe it accurately, sometimes the exaggerate it,” said Giuliani. “So I’d have to see what the real… what they really are doing. Not the way some of these liberal newspapers have exaggerated it.”
Waterboarding is a form of torture[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]…
Included in those footnotes is a letter from over 100 law professors stating unequivocally that waterboarding is, in fact, torture, and fellow presidential candidate and prisoner of war tortured in Vietnam, Senator John McCain (R-Arizona), stating that waterboarding is “torture, no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank” and can damage the subject’s psyche “in ways that may never heal.” In 2005, the State Department classified submerging a prisoner’s head in water as torture when examining Tunisia’s poor human rights record.
28 Responses to “Giuliani Leaves the Door Open for Waterboarding”
Boy, if right-wing reactionary d-bags were as interested in BEING the “good guys” as they are at SAYING they’re the “good guys” we wouldn’t need to be having this conversation. To put it in terms you will understand; We can either wear white hats or we can torture… we can’t do both. The enemy’s willingness to employ torture & terror IS why they’re the ENEMY
waterboarding is not torture, and the treatment of prisoners at Git’mo is perhaps the best in the history of warfare. 0 fatalities. ZERO, go ask barbra boxer if san quintin can make such a boast, or if hillary clinton thinks riker’s island stacks up. enemies captured ON THE BATTLEFIELD and held in a world class facility, one that houses the offices of the red cross btw.
the left is so desperate to derail the war effort that, when not undermining US relations with Turkey from the floor os the House, are trying to label getting splashed a few times TORTURE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
again, if these actions are such a violation, then i call on senator clinton to stand up for the liberties of khalid shaek muhammed and speak out on his behalf publicly. and following her lead, democrat senators and congressmen should offer prisons in their home district and holding cells for the POWs as they await trial. let see if the left follows through.
good guys? the left wants to abbadon iraq, leaving it to tear itself apart in civil war that will engulf the region and kill millions, doesnt sound very good guyish.
Adm. Robert J. Natter, retired, the former commander in chief of the Atlantic Fleet.
“The highly politicized nature of political campaigns makes that forum a poor arena in which to debate the distinctions between torture and different forms of interrogation,” Admiral Natter said. “Is waterboarding torture? I don’t know. I was waterboarded as part of my military training, and I would say that it falls into a gray area.”
but he’s only an Admiral, and you guys are bloggers, so its clear you know more then he does.
Hey matt, what if for some reason, you were accidentally captured in a big mistake and declared an enemy combatant.
Would you be ok with being water boarded? It might be a good way to show your patriotism.
sure. its a non lethal technique. many members of our military are trained by being water boarded. if i was captured by our enemy,however, the ones whos liberties your party fights for, waterboarding wouldn’t be on the menu.
Ok, how about if they wanted to electrocute you? Would you be ok with that?
Or maybe beat you?
Oh, and you know, cutting off someone’s arm with a rusty blade isn’t a lethal technique if done properly. Would you be game for that as well, matt?
I know. Sounds like matt is up for it.
trying to lump cutting off limps and electricution to some glorified splashing is ridiculous. again, if you feel so very strongly about waterboarding then you should encourage you nominee to support the rights of the terrorists against the president. senator clinton should champion khalid muhammed’s civil liberties as part of her campaign. but i find is disturbing that you are so very concerned about al queda prisoners and their well being.
matt, you just don’t get it do you? I’m concerned about people’s well being in general, including yours, you may be surprised to know.
I wouldn’t want you, or me, or someone who was innocent waterboarded or tortured by our government. And you know what? That’s one of the problems with torture. It produces questionable results. If you torture someone for long enough, they will tell you just about anything you want to hear.
And frankly I wouldn’t want someone who is guilty tortured either. Torturing is wrong. It’s what the terrorists do. We shouldn’t sink to their level. It’s not what this country stands for.
Not all the people we capture are Al Qaeda or terrorists. Many people at Gitmo and other prisons were just petty criminals in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of these people just got swept up near another attack, and some were turned in by gang lords looking to settle a score. This has been addressed and documented by soldiers who were there. You may call them “phony soldiers,” I would assume.
Also, your statement that there have been no deaths at Gitmo is wrong. There were 3 suicides there last year. And do you know how many convictions we’ve gotten at Gitmo? 1.
I don’t believe in torture, matt. Period. But apparently you do, which is where we differ. And stop saying waterboarding is not torture, because it is. It’s not glorified splashing. You are simulating drowning someone. Do you think that when you feel like you’re drowning you’re thinking, “Oh, splishy splashy, splishy, splashy.” No. Simulating drowning is torture. Take it from someone like John McCain. He would know.
I would assume you would also agree with Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, who suggested that it’s worth torturing 10 innocent people by accident if we get 90 terrorists off the street. Do you agree with that statement?
And please stop using your copied and pasted right wing talking points saying that Democrats love terrorists and care more about terrorists than the troops, and blah, blah, blah.
Democrats care about human rights and about protecting what this country stands for. This is America. We don’t stand for torture. That’s what the terrorists stand for. If we start torturing people, guilty or innocent, we’ve become just like the terrorists. And then they’ve already won.
I love the part when matt realizes he’s lost the argument and then shuts the f up.
I’m sure he just fell asleep and we’ll hear more from him on why torture is grand tomorrow.
concerned about people’s well being in gerneral? pffffff you are one of the liberals who had zero problem leaving someone like saddam in power, allowing him and his family to torment and murder hundreds of thousands of people for generations to come. you care so much about people you want to now abandon a fledgling democracy and allow a genocide to ensue, yea i feel your compassion noah.
3 suicides, well gee my heart just breaks. find me another prison on earth with a fatality rate like that please. the left wants it closed so badly, and i say why? i have yet to hear anything close to a logical reason. i say fine, as long as the occupants are tranfored to prisons in democrat districts.
this isn’t about liking torture, or wanting to torture, this is about the powers of the commander in chief being usurped by an overreaching congress. whether waterboarding is torture is for the millitary to decide, some like senator mccain say it is, some like admiral natter, say no its not.
trying to compare our treatment of prisoners to the way the enemy treats our soldiers or civilians is a joke. we are not sinking to their level, and to suggest we are any where near their level is absurd. again i ask who are we losing the moral high ground to? osama? the mullahs? who???
the democrats don’t love terrorists, but we all know that the ACLU does, like those who believe as william kunsler did. those of you who gladly defended the likes of omar abdel-rahman and sayyid nossair, and who would gladly line up to help terrorists in american custody sue the united states. i would bet anything there are ACLU lawyers already lining up to handle kahlid muhammed’s civil case against america for his waterboarding. is that justice noah? that the master mind of 9/11 would be defended by the ACLU, that he could possibly be awarded american tax dollars for his pain and suffering, and even have his case thrown out all together, and be set free! are you kidding me, noah?!?!
we don’t stand for torture, noah, but we are also not stupid. we are not going to put ourselves in a position where we can’t properly interrigate terrorists in custody. if osama himself was captured, and he clearly would have knowledge of pending attacks, what would you do? we know you wouldnt want to hurt the poor fella, or pour water over his head, or keep the old man up at night, so what would you do? offer a plea? cut a deal? or would you do what you have to do to get the information you know he possesses. sorry that you feel osama’s civil rights matter more then my security, but i don’t agree.
this is not about waterboarding, this about protecting the men and women who serve this country from prosecution for doing their jobs, protecting us, including ungrateful snots like you. its about protecting the powers of the executive, and not letting you usurp his power simply because you don’t like him. and don’t cherry pick words from john mccain, mccain supports the troops, the surge, and doing what it takes to win. john mccain would never allow americans to be prosecuted or sued by the likes of the ACLU in defense of terrorists like abdel-rahman or khalid muhammed.
don’t preach about what this country stands for noah, your party abandoned liberty and freedom a long time ago, the moment they decided socialist reforms were the cure-all for america. the democrat america is an america where personal responsibility goes out the window, where the nanny state will make your decisions for you. democrats believe in creating laws out of thin air, building an overreaching federal government that will control our lives, tell us how to live, what to eat, what doctor i can or cant see, what school i can or cant go to, and one that will just take my estate outright and rob my family of whats theirs. they believe in the american collective, where the cream doesnt rise to the top, but where we all exist in a constant mediocrity, overseen by a far too powerful nanny government.
democrats care about human rights? democrats precided over 2 world wars, locked american citizens in concentration camps, the nuremburg trials, attempted to assasinate foriegn leaders, abandoned cuban freedom fighters who were then slaughtered, executed nazi prisoners without trial, destroyed 2 civilian cities with nuclear weapons, launched wars into korea and vietnam without provication, and have observed nearly a million american casualties on their watch. the amount of blood on the hands of democrats in this nation’s modern history is overwhelming. oh yea noah, you guys sure do care.
david, not you or any other foolish shill on this site has ever won an arguement with me. you are a supporter of a failed party and a failed philosophy, but there is still time for you to get behind soon-to-be president rudolph giuliani, and perhaps straighten out your embarassing life.
when you bottom-line it, we are talking about scaring people. waterboarding is not lethal, it is not painful, and it on average lasts for about 14 seconds.
we know that we have weakened as a nation since WWII, when we withstood 450,000 casualites, to now, where we whimper and break at just 3,700. but to think we are a country so weak that we don’t even want to scare the bad guys, much less hurt them, is truely frightening. we don’t want to scare POWs, even though it has been proven to be very effective. we don’t want to scare iran with force, although is was proven to effective in beating the soviets without a shot fired. the weakness brought on this country by our weak left wing underbelly is the one thing that stands in the way of winning and ending the war with radical islam.
some cut and past fun that i think you shills will enjoy:
Senator Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign is gaining fans, even on the West Bank.
“I hope Hillary is elected in order to have the occasion to carry out all the promises she is giving regarding Iraq,” said Ala Senakreh, West Bank chief of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, a Palestinian terror group. “President Clinton wanted to give the Palestinians 98 percent of the West Bank territories. I hope Hillary will move a step forward and will give the Palestinians all their rights.”
Senakreh and other top Islamo-fascists want Hillary in the Oval Office. These mass murders also have “gone negative.” They want GOP contender Rudy Giuliani dead.
“We see Hillary and other candidates are competing on who will withdraw from Iraq,” said Abu Jihad of Al Aqsa’s Nablus unit. “This is a moment of glory for the revolutionary movements in the Arab world…”
Al Aqsa’s Nasser Abu Aziz, considered it “very good” that there are “voices like Hillary and others who are now attacking the Iraq invasion.”
Islamic Jihad’s Abu Ayman felt “emboldened” by Clinton’s demands that America retreat from Iraq. He said: “It is clear that it is the resistance operations of the mujahideen that have brought about these calls for withdrawal.”
“All Americans must vote Democrat,” insisted Jihad Jaara, an exiled Al Aqsa agent who commanded 2002’s siege of Bethlehem’s Church of the Nativity.
Since 1995, these terrorists’ organizations have killed an estimated 162 and wounded 368 others in Israel. Aaron Klein, an Orthodox Jew who is WorldNetDaily.com’s Jerusalem Bureau Chief, interviewed some three dozen leading Muslim fanatics, including those quoted here. His new book, “Schmoozing with Terrorists,” details these chilling encounters with violent Islamic extremists in Israel’s Palestinian territories.
Why do these hardened butchers have a soft spot for Hillary Clinton? Perhaps because the New York Democrat is soft on terrorism.
Clinton rejects robustly interrogating terrorists even in “ticking time bomb” scenarios. In a September 26 Democratic debate, she said: “It cannot be American policy, period.”
Clinton opposes the U.S. Terrorist Surveillance Program, calling it “a secret program that spies on Americans.”
Clinton voted against military tribunals for terror suspects, including al-Qaeda detainees.
Clinton has zigzagged on Iraq. In autumn 2002, she voted for Operation Iraqi Freedom. Last January 18, she told PBS: “I think the timetable still remains problematic” for leaving Iraq. But on February 17, she stated: “It’s time to say the redeployment should start in 90 days…”
Meanwhile, Clinton’s campaign has not responded to my request to list her counterterrorist accomplishments.
These terrorists’ love for Hillary mirrors their hatred for her leading GOP rival, Rudy Giuliani.
“If I had the occasion to meet him I would hurt him,” said Ramadan Adassi, a West Bank Al Aqsa leader. “For the sake of the American people, Giuliani shouldn’t be elected.”
“Giuliani doesn’t deserve to live or even to be mentioned,” said Al Aqsa’s Ala Senakreh. “He hates Palestinians and we hate him.”
Al Aqsa’s Abu Hamed said Giuliani “can hate Arafat and the Palestinians, but he knows that nobody is hated in the world more than his leadership, his party, his president, and his Zionist friends.”
Why the hard feelings? Perhaps because Giuliani has snipped terrorists’ bomb wires for 31 years.
Mayor Giuliani’s NYPD officers in July 1997 arrested two Palestinians with Jordanian passports and five pipe-bombs. They were convicted of immigration fraud and plotting to blast Brooklyn’s Atlantic Avenue subway station.
As New York City’s U.S. Attorney, Giuliani attempted in 1988 to close the Palestine Liberation Organization’s United Nations observer mission under the 1987 Anti-Terrorism Act.
In 1986, Giuliani targeted an anti-Castro group responsible for two murders and 25 bombings. Giuliani secured guilty pleas from three Omega 7 members who conspired to kill Cuba’s U.N. ambassador in 1980 and blow up its Manhattan consulate in 1979.
Giuliani represented the Justice Department on President Gerald Ford’s Cabinet Committee to Combat Terrorism in 1976.
“I don’t believe Americans should base their votes entirely on what the terrorists think,” Aaron Klein says from Jerusalem, “but it’s certainly telling that our enemies are rooting for the Democrats, particularly Hillary.”As the War on Terror continues, Americans should study our foes’ political preferences — and then pull the lever the other way.
you guys also forgot that giuliani’s position on this is identical to former president clinton’s position. just another fun fact you guys like leaving out. amazing how will quote mccain when it suits you but ignore your very own democrat champion, slick willy!
Guys,should I even respond to this?
matt, I thought about copying and pasting your last like 5 posts here and responding to each little issue, but I just don’t feel like it. I’m sick of arguing with you.
But one thing I will point out is, how can you say things like “you are one of the liberals who had zero problem leaving someone like saddam in power.” ? I assume that means you have read through all of my past writings, emails, correspondences with people, maybe even tapped my phones? matt, don’t make these kind of arguments when you don’t even know what my opinion is on this issue, since you haven’t even asked me.
I will ask you this though. Please answer the following questions with a yes or no. I will give you my own answer as well. Please don’t go off on any tangent. These are simple questions, and if you can’t answer them with a simple yes or no, you are falling into the same moral relativism that you and your party accuses me and my—oh, wait, I haven’t asked you if you think liberals are moral relativists. So I won’t accuse you and “your party” of making these statements. So please, answer yes or no:
Q: Do you think torturing someone who we know is guilty of terrorism, and who has admitted to being a terrorist, is wrong?
A: I answer that yes, it is wrong. Torture is wrong. You?
Q: Do you think torturing someone who we are not sure is guilty, who we think might be innocent is wrong?
A: I say yes. It is wrong. And you?
Q: Do you agree with Dana Rohrabacher that it’s worth it to torture 10 innocent people to get 90 terrorists in jail?
A: I say, no it’s not worth it. You?
Please answer those questions. They are simple. Torture is not a morally relative gray area. You either think it’s right or you don’t. You can’t just go with a little bit of torture when you feel like it.
The reason I bring this up is because you say “we don’t stand for torture, noah, but we are also not stupid.” To me, there is no “but” with torture. It is one of those issues that you could say, “You’re either with us or against us.” One of the types of issues that George W. Bush could understand because there are only two possible answers.
That is all.
Q: Do you think torturing someone who we know is guilty of terrorism, and who has admitted to being a terrorist, is wrong?
A: i feel it is wrong, but then again you and i differ on what constitutes torture.
Q: Do you think torturing someone who we are not sure is guilty, who we think might be innocent is wrong?
A: again, torture is wrong, but we disagree as to what torture is.
Q: Do you agree with Dana Rohrabacher that it’s worth it to torture 10 innocent people to get 90 terrorists in jail?
A: no i do not agree, because i don’t believe in torture.
the arguement isn’t whether i support torture or not, its what constitutes torture. a procedure that causes no physical pain, no physical damage, and puts no one’s life in danger, to me, is not torture. you disagree. waterboarding is essentialy scaring the shit out of someone. when dealing with prisoners of war, who may or may not possess knowledge of acts of war against the united states, i think scaring the shit out of a few of them is something we can stomach.
now i doubt i have convinced you that waterboarding is not torture, but since you believe it is, there are a few other techniques that you should be aware of, and should question your democratic leaders about.
in the mid 1990s, president clinton permitted the use of the REACT belt in the US Marshall service and in federal prisons. the belt is a restraining device that applies 50 kV of electricity to the muscles in the area of the kidneys. now, noah, you said the following:
‘Democrats care about human rights and about protecting what this country stands for. This is America. We don’t stand for torture.’
well maybe you don’t noah, but president clinton sure does, according to your definition of the word torture. and both the former president and senator clinton have left an exception open, the same exception rudy giuliani and other republicans made, that in the ‘ticking time bomb’ scenario, ‘torture’ would be ok. it seems to me that you have issues to take up with your own candidates, rather then attacking mine.
I never said I liked Bill Clinton. I have major problems with him. And using that electro shock belt is something I would be totally against.
And I really, really don’t like Hillary Clinton, which is why I would prefer any Democrat over her. One of my major problems with Hillary is that she’s provided evasive answers on questions of torture, which I find totally unacceptable.
Another question. Do you think cutting off someone’s air supply almost to the point of asphyxiation would constitute torture? True, it might not cause any physical pain, leave any scars or kill that person, but in my mind, that is torture.
Giuliani’s position is just like the past Pres. Clinton’s ….. well that is encouraging news. I don’t think that is something to brag about! Giuliani is already too much like Hillary Clinton to please me so give me more ammunition!
noah, asphyxiation actually can cause serious physical damage, brain injuries, etc., so yes i believe it is torture.
MJN, giuliani is nothing like hillary clinton, unlike mitt romney, who is a virtual clone of hillary. he is someone so desperate for power he will say anything, do anything, change every position and conviction he ever had if it means duping you, very much like her thighness.
Well, since one can be asphyxiated during waterboarding, I guess it’s torture then..
There is a very funny amature video on Utube called Clinton and Giuliani are in Sync on social issues….. a recommend seeing it.
depends how it is done, as both clinton and giuliani pointed out, how it is done is essential to whether it will be done at all.
mjn, there are a million articles about the clear differences on their social issues. but i really dont care, if you are a pro-life single issue simpleton then by all means think what you like, all this election cycle is proving is how little power the christian right really has.
[...] Matt Ortega added an interesting post on Giuliani Leaves the Door Open for WaterboardingHere’s a small excerpt [...]
Something to say?
boy, if liberals were HALF as upset at americans who are beheaded by our enemies as they are at terrorists getting their heads dunked in water, they might actually get a little traction with this joke of a topic. they act as if american citizens were placed in concentration camps or something, and we all know that only democrats do things like that, right mr. roosevelt?
i would ask that senator clinton lead a march in DC proclaiming that we must help and protect the liberties of Kalid Shaek Muhammed, as well as contribute funds to his ACLU defense team that will try to sue the USA for damages to his ‘psyche’ because of being splashed a few times. i would really like to see senator clinton lead this fight to protect the rights of 9/11 mastermind khalid shaek muhammed, because his rights, not our safety, are what count, right orteeega?
Left by matt
October 25, 2007 at 7:02pm